MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
The current White House chief of staff has some edgy assessments of President Trump and others in the administration. We hear from former Chief of Staff Leon Panetta about serving as the president's top aide. But first, we learn of Susie Wiles' opinions not in passing remarks but through months of interviews.
STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
The resulting article in Vanity Fair illuminates a woman who rarely made headlines up to now. She has acted as the president's facilitator since before the inauguration. She's also been ducking out of White House meetings to tell a reporter how Trump's White House works.
MARTIN: NPR White House correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben is here to talk about that fallout. Good morning, Danielle.
DANIELLE KURTZLEBEN, BYLINE: Hey, Michel.
MARTIN: So what was in this piece that got so much attention?
KURTZLEBEN: Well, for one thing, Wiles openly described several conflicts within this White House. For example, when Elon Musk started gutting USAID, Wiles says she was aghast and argued with him about how he was doing it. She also talks about disagreements on tariffs and how she and Vice President JD Vance initially tried to get Trump to back off of announcing that big round of tariffs in April. But in addition, Wiles is just blunt about people. She calls Vance a conspiracy theorist whose conversion from anti- to pro-Trump was, quote, "sort of political," and she really pointedly criticizes Attorney General Pam Bondi for her initial handling of Jeffrey Epstein disclosures.
MARTIN: Well, that sounds like she really gave her unvarnished take on things. I mean, I guess some people think that she was being harsh.
KURTZLEBEN: Yeah. Some people do, and this really got a lot of attention on social media because of it. But there's a lot of nuance here, really. The picture that emerges is that you have all these personalities in that White House, some of whom aren't described 100% glowingly, but that Wiles is this no-nonsense force just herding them all together in the service of Trump's agenda. And even when it seems here like she might have criticized Trump, the truth is just more complex. For example, there's a quote that got a lot of attention where she said Trump has an alcoholic personality. But in context, what she was saying is that Trump has a big, exaggerated personality and that he, quote, operates with "a view that there's nothing he can't do." Well, that's news to no one.
MARTIN: Yeah. I think we knew that. Well, so how is the White House responding to this?
KURTZLEBEN: Well, Wiles was not happy. She did a rare social media post, calling this a hit piece, saying that she thought the article was trying to, quote, "paint an overwhelmingly chaotic and negative narrative." And Trump officials have circled the wagons, too. Trump even did a specific interview on this with the New York Post. And he backed up Wiles and even agreed with that alcoholic line, saying that, yeah, while he doesn't drink, he does have an addictive personality. Vance also defended Wiles yesterday.
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JD VANCE: You know why I really love Susie Wiles? Because Susie is who she is in the president's presence. She's the same exact person when the president isn't around. I've never seen Susie Wiles say something to the president and then go and counteract him or subvert his will behind the scenes.
KURTZLEBEN: He also blamed the news media. But again, this was more than a year's worth of interviews, meaning Wiles agreed repeatedly to give Vanity Fair this access.
MARTIN: OK. So quickly, Danielle, the Trump administration at war with the media is not a new thing. So why is this such a big deal, and why the concerted pushback?
KURTZLEBEN: Well, first of all, like you said, that it's just rare for Wiles to talk to reporters and be this unfiltered. Secondly, the drama got attention, as drama does. But beyond all that, there's the context that the administration has been trying to focus on the economy. Here we see just how easily that can be derailed, just as Trump himself did earlier this week when he disparaged the slain liberal film director Rob Reiner. Now, tonight, the White House is going to try to get back on course with the prime-time address, which is expected to focus on the president's first-year wins.
MARTIN: NPR's Danielle Kurtzleben. Danielle, thank you.
KURTZLEBEN: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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